“People put musicians on pedestals and look at them in these completely different lights, and yet, really, they’re just as daft as stupid as everybody else.”
Peter Hook, despite battling bronchitis before a Seattle show, is not pulling any punches when he talks to CL. The icon — who, together with his Joy Division bandmates, essentially invented post-punk — is explaining his social media feed, where countless fans ask Hook about reunions and the other trappings that come with being a creator of one of rock music’s most important bodies of work. The operation is actually run by his son, Jack Bates, who is taking a break from playing bass in Hook’s current band, The Light, to go on tour with Smashing Pumpkins (that tour comes to Tampa in July). Bates is not taking a break from keeping his 62-year-old father out of trouble on the internet.
“I would be like, ‘Tell him to fuck off, I’m gonna come around there and hit him on the head with me fucking bass,’” Hook jokes about commenters as he tries to futz with a broken coffee machine. “And of course Jack filters that to ‘Thank you for your interest.’”
Hook is quick to chuckle during our 25-minute conversation. A lot of it has to do with the happiness he’s getting from playing both of the Substance albums he was a part of: Joy Division’s 1988 singles comp released eight years after singer Ian Curtis’ death, and New Order’s 1987 singles comp (kids reading this: Joy Division and the band that came after it are a big reason your favorite rock bands actually exist). Hook is having so much fun playing the material on the tour — which closes in St. Petersburg with a show at State Theatre on June 4 — that it’s keeping him from recording new music with his other projects like Monaco and Revenge, which he works on with longtime manager and friend David Potts. Hook admits that The Light does indeed have music “aching to come out,” but that playing material from his older bands is just too enjoyable.
“It’s all me, me, me,” Hook jokes, “and as long as the people out there in the audience agree with me, then I’m OK, so I’ve got no plans to lock myself away for six months, put my heart and soul into something and then have to give [the album] away.”
So expect The Light— which features Marilyn Manson bassist and occasional Goon Moon guitarist Fred Sablan filling in for Hook’s son — to dive into both Substance releases, which Hook admits are very different.
“The contrast is that you’ve got New Order Substance, which is very, very commercial, very, very, well-known and yet you’ve got Joy Division Substance, which is very intense, quite uncompromising really and also not that well-known,” he says.
And don’t believe that Hook — who left New Order in 2007 — isn’t also thinking about his old bandmates when he relives this music. He admits to visiting Curtis’s gravestone often, and even seems to hope for a reconciliation with his New Order bandmates Bernard Sumner and Stephen Morris.
“The very thing that makes great chemistry, that makes great music in groups is also the very chemistry that destroys them,” Hook says, adding that he would like to have a nice relationship with the people that have been the most important in his life.
“But I don’t have that, and it’s really sad. When you get to my age, you realize that life is actually quite short, and to waste it on anything is silly, really.”
Read our extended Q&A, and get more information on the show, below.
Hi Peter, how are you feeling today?
Man, I've got bronchitis.
Oh, dang, man.
So, yeah. I know, that's life isn't it? Apart from that everything is good.
Does that mean you skip the gym?
(coughing)
Oh, man, that sounds like you're skipping the gym.
Sounds like an old car starting.
Nah…I wanted to ask you about being old, because you've touched on it. You were there for the birth of punk, you were there, you’ve talked about that energy, but do you get out much to see what the future looks like? Like, who is next Foo Foo Lammar doing important work out there?
Well, it's an interesting question. As a visitor, I never get to see these people. These are the sort of people that you see when you spend time there. It's like going out last night, we were taken by our new bass player, who is called Fred Sablan…
Yeah, from the Goon Hour...
Yeah, yeah. He's showing us around places in Seattle. It was absolutely fantastic, all the record shops, the restaurants, all the clubs, and you know, you need to be in touch to be able to tune in to things like that, and the sad thing is that we aren't in touch are we? We just sort of bowl in, we're here for less than 24 hours, so you never get to see it. The only time I get that sort of vibe is when I am sat at home reading about it on the internet. Probably, hopefully, from people like you, you see. It's very difficult to tune into something like that.
I mean, as a person, and as a group of people, New Order were very much in the right place at the right time. On several fantastic occasions we really were very lucky in that way. As to whether music will ever have those happenings again, is, God, you know — would you ever get punk again?
I don't know, you've said it perfectly. These bands have to be so careful and calculated about who they are now…
Acid house, would you ever get acid house again? I don't think you can simply because, as the world has become smaller with communication and everything like that, these happenings become fewer. Like, if you listen to a lot of music, today, it's so derivative of older music. It's very rare that you hear something that makes your ear prick up where you go, "Oh that sounds different."
I'd be pushed how, here, to think of any kind of music that doesn't sound or refer back to something else, but in our lives as a human being, it's not the worst affliction. I remember Barney [Bernard Sumner] always used to take the piss out of me for being melancholic, you know, for looking back, and I used to think, "You know that's surely that's one of the most pleasurable things in life is to look back."
You know, when you're kids were young, when you were young. The influences you had the enjoyment you got growing up from different kinds of music. It's just very difficult to look at something, put your finger on it and go, "You know what, that is completely new." Like an attitude that was completely new.
If you actually delve into the history of it, there's a great new book out at the moment by a guy called Johan Kugelberg. It's a history of the Sex Pistols, it's called God Save Sex Pistols. It's a collection of posters and things. It's also got stories by the people who were there. It's an absolutely fascinating insight to see that Malcom got the idea for punk from glam rock, but really it was the people he employed, that he couldn't control that channeled their aggression into it — Johnny Rotten, really was a person that Malcolm McLaren could not control. So he created him, if you like, if you listen to Malcom's version, and then Johnny just spiraled out of control because he didn't like being told what to do, which was the essence of punk, wasn't it? It was all about doing it for yourself, anarchy, chaos, not being told what to do, and Johnny Rotten was probably the first proponent because he didn't listen to his manager. So, a true punk.
I like that you mentioned Barney giving you a hard time about being melancholic, but you've mentioned missing the youngness of that music and how it’s nice to wallow a little bit…
Yeah, it is. I find that pleasurable as a human being, and luckily for me, here, on this tour, ha, I've got thousands and thousands of people who agree. Really all you can ask for in music, is to find people that agree with your taste because otherwise you're gonna be stood in an empty room on your bloody own, aren't ya?
And we’re a week away from the date of Ian’s death, you’ll play Unknown Pleasures and Closer at these upcoming L.A. shows.
Yeah.
You’ve obviously rehearsed the music, but does it start to get hard, emotionally as the day gets closer?
No, you know the thing is that I live still right next to Macclesfield crematorium where Ian is, and to be honest with you, I don't want to sound macabre or anything, but if I'm there, then I pop in. Me and me mates will go in there and have a look at his gravestone just to make sure that everything is OK. It's one of those things. The thing is I actually do feel closer to him for resurrecting the music — which is nice — and, again, it is something I enjoy. I'm looking forward, immensely, because the whole reason, why I started it was May the 18th, 2010, so to actually still be here on May the 18th, 2018, in L.A. — to be able to get up and play those LPs again. I've managed, in those eight years, to do 500-plus concerts, play Joy Division to hundreds of thousands of people, and we've all enjoyed it. So it's wonderful. It's going to be a great celebration for me, to be honest, I won't be doing anything except celebrating. The only down part is that Ian is not there to celebrate it with you. Bernard and Stephen [Morris] not being there to celebrate it is their choice, so they can do they're own celebration if they wanted to, can't they?
So, yeah, it is nice position for me to be in — I must admit, and I am gonna enjoy it. But, you know, the tour we're playing with you, I presume is Substance, isn't it?
Correct. And Substance is a hard album to play.
Well, Substance by New Order is easy to play because it's got all the hits on it.
OK.
Some of the songs New Order didn't play a lot because they were difficult to transcribe, shall we say, and we were lazy. Haha.
Haha.
So we didn't do it, but I don't have the option of leaving them out, so I have to do them, and to be honest with you, once you work through it, it's not too bad. The Light are very, very good, they work very, very very hard. They put a lot of passion, a lot of heart and soul into what they do. So, with that attitude, it makes it easy for us to do it, so it's fine. The contrast is that you've got New Order Substance, which is very, very commercial, very, very, well-known and yet you've got Joy Division Substance, which is very intense, quite uncompromising really and also not that well-known, some of the songs on the album. But, most of the time, it goes down just as well as Substance New Order.
Does Fred get to use those guitars that have handwritten notes on them? Do you still handwrite on the neck?
I do, actually. If you take a picture of my guitar neck, and take a look closely, you can see where the songs begin is still written on the guitar.
But Fred doesn't have to use those. I find it so interesting that Billy Corgan poached Jack from your band. And also, you're closing the tour in St. Petersburg. I know that Billy has been spotted in some of the record stores in St. Petersburg — do you have any plans to see Billy? I know he's got a tour to prepare for.
Haha. Yeah, hopefully. Billy is a great friend, and has been over the years, and I admire his taste — let's put it that way. I'm sorry to lose Jack, I really am, but I couldn't stand in his way of doing something. It's all about cutting the apron strings, isn't it really? I'm really proud of him and the tour that Billy is doing is huge, it really is, and I could not have deprived Jack of the opportunity, shall we say, to play in those venues to those crowds — I could not have done that.
I'm sure I could have played the guilt card and kept him there, but I couldn't have done it to him. To play Madison Square Garden, just a dream come true for a musician. And I know Billy looks after him because he's known him since he was very, very young. So it's good, he's in good hands, let me put it that way.
Do you think you'll see Billy when you are in St. Petersburg or is that something you don't want to talk about?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was hoping to see Billy in Chicago this time, but he wasn't there.
Well, I think I should ask you this so I don't get a hard time from anyone, you are playing these albums, and there's this respect for Ian, but what is next for you? I think you might switch gears and play some Republic stuff, but what about Pottsy? Does he bother you about doing Monaco stuff? What about Revenge?
Haha. Quite a lot, actually. It's probably about the same I used to bother him. It's difficult, and I've mentioned it in many interviews that as an 80s and 90s artist, the very thought of locking myself away for six months, putting your heart and soul into something and then having to give it away just does not set me on fire, and I have to say I'm having a great time going through the LPs, I really am. I have my satisfaction, my creative satisfaction from doing the gigs that I do with the The Limiñanas in France, with [unknown] in England. I've also worked with one of the guys from Kraftwerk, the track with him, I am doing an EP soon with Richard Norris (The Grid), so my creative juices, shall we say, are still flowing, but the commitment to do an LP, I have to say, I'm having fun and the very thought of locking myself away and suffering — haha, there's no other way to put it — you do. It's like writing a book. The amount of suffering that you have to do to get that finished, it doesn't turn me on. I'm 62.
I'm still one of the only people in the world that is expected to do all of that work and not get bloody paid.
Haha.
You know, everyone else gets paid, and then musicians and journalists, we're treated like bloody idiots aren't we?
Haha, I guess we're kind of in the same boat.
Hold on one minute. Sorry about that. I am having trouble with my fucking coffee machine.
Oh, that sucks, especially when you have bronchitis. Don't be sorry, I appreciate you taking the time. I wanted to ask you about The Light, since you enjoy playing with them so much. Do you feel like The Light is able to exist in that place right before New Order signed to a major, you know that area where you or the music are a littler ornery with a little bit of an edge, or is it more of a polish?
That's an interesting question. I'd like to think that it was true. I think the thing is, the very thing that makes great chemistry that makes great music in groups…
Destroys it as well.
It is also the very chemistry that destroys them. It's the very fact that you're all different that makes your music interesting, and every group suffers from it, shall we say? Because it's all about compromise in a group, and when the compromising stops, and one person wants more out of the other, it's usually when it leads to the downfall of the group, isn't it?
It's very well-documented, "musical differences," that's what we call call it, isn't it? And the thing is, in The Light we don't have musical differences because we all know what we're doing. We all know what we're playing this music, wherever we can, whenever we can, and we're going to fucking enjoy ourselves. In New Order, there were different people involved who didn't want to do that as much as other people, and you have to respect everybody’s, you know, way of life. You can't make people do what they don't want to do. You can try, but invariably it's gonna cause bad feeling, isn't it? So the thing is, as your relationship grew, and you turned into different people — that's what led to the differences in the band. "Inconceivable" — is that the right word?
"Irreconcilable."
"Irreconcilable" — that's the right word, isn't it? And it's sad, you know, I would love to have a nice relationship with the three people that have been the most important to me in my life, but I don't, and it's really sad, that.
Yeah, one day you'll have that dinner, maybe, down the road.
Yeah, hopefully. I really do hope so because when I get to my age, you realize that life is actually quite short, and to waste it on anything is silly, really, but we'll have to see really.
So The Light has this mission to serve the songs — does that mean that there aren't musical accidents when you are playing with The Light? I feel like you've talked about musical accidents…
No, we do have them. We have a lot of really good jams, and I really do think that we do have a lot of music aching to come out. It's just that, as I said before, we're, well, I'm — it's all me, me, me — I'm happy doing what I am doing at the moment. And as long as the people out there in the audience agree with me, then I'm OK, so I've got no plans to take six months off. Maybe I need to find, to do it in a different way, maybe that's what Pottsy and I need to talk about. Maybe do it track-by-track.
You could do that, track-by-track. Do you and Pottsy so that thing where you trade files in the Dropbox?
The thing that does frighten me. I can hear the groans from here, in L.A. on May the 18th if I went, "You know what, we're not gonna play any of that Joy Division stuff — we're gonna play some new music." Could you imagine, it would be a fucking riot.
Well, I think the L.A. crowd is 100-percent expecting to hear Unknown Pleasures and Closer, they have their own deep connection to Ian.
There's a time and a place, but I'm not actually — it's me that's not in that place yet.
Would you still hit somebody in the nose with your bass if they hocked a loogey on you?
Haha, yes. I think respect, sadly, in this world, seems to be a very rare quality, and I think you have to show respect to people, and I think I show respect, so you only live to get what you give, don't you. Treat others as to how you would treat them.
And maybe we can close on that idea of respect. You talk about this energy of respect, and you've talked about punk being about getting rid of old farts, and this energy. I was wondering, how rebellious do you still feel today?
Well, the thing is, I get myself into a lot of trouble on a daily basis.
How so?
Well, luckily for me I have wonderful people that pull me back. My son, my daughter, my wife — they're all always coming on to me going, "You can't put that up, take it down."
Haha. They proofread your social media posts?
Oh, God, yeah. I'm always getting told off for being indiscrete, shall we say.
That's how Trump should be — Trump should have a jack.
Yes. He needs a Jack, a Jessica and a Rebecca, my wife, but then again, you see, he'd be no fun, would he? It's that balance of being a little bit, straight, shall we say, maybe too honest, and the thing about honesty is that it generally comes from passion, doesn't it?
Yes, most times.
That's when you make mistakes, isn't it. When you are being passionate, and you're doing things in the heat of the moment, and historically we don't like politicians to do that, but I must admit that I can actually understand Trump's hot-headedness in that position of power because I suffer from doing things myself.
You know, people put musicians on pedestals and look at them in these completely different light, and yet, really, they're just as daft as stupid as everybody else.
That's correct.
Absolutely, mmm-hmm, if not more daft and stupid.
https://www.facebook.com/rayroa/posts/10209933693133740Do you run our own social media? I was wondering about that today because I always ask for questions from fans on my feed if I know I am going to get to talk to someone like you, and today someone quipped in about New Order and the reply from the Peter Hook & The Light page was "There's always one," and it was joking, but I wonder, do you operate that page? No, right? There's no way.
No, that's Jack.
So Jack does that, even with all the other stuff happening.
He comes on to me immediately, and he's still gonna do it when he's in the Smashing Pumpkins, God bless him.
God, he's a good son.
He is a good son. I'll tell you what, and he's very knowledgeable, and he also keeps me out of a hell of a lot of trouble because I would be like, "Tell him to fuck off that twat, I'm gonna come around there and hit him on the head with me fucking bass," and of course he filters that to "Thank you for your interest." Haha. He's a good boy.
Yeah, I'm excited to potentially see him on that tour, actually. One fan wanted to know, and I know you’ve mentioned feeling like your heart was ripped out after Anton’s film, how do you feel you were portrayed specifically in that movie?
Oh, he went out of his way to make sure that the actors were impersonating us. It was something that Michael Winterbottom didn't do in 24 Hour Party People, he just let it be a complete farce, and I didn't recognize the people at all. Thing is, in Control Anton sat with them, and schooled them, and said, "No, no, that's not how Barney would do it, this is how Barney would do it — watch the film, watch his interview." You know, he schooled them to be just like us, and I must admit there was a few shivers down my spine. Not only looking at myself being acted. He put a lot of work into that, and really the only people who would know would be the people who were very close to the group. He's a great perfectionist.
Awesome, is there anything you want to leave us with before you get to St. Petersburg?
No, mate, I'm happy to be coming back. It's a great compliment, and I would just like to say in advance, "Thank you," and we will certainly to do our best to make it a great evening.
Excellent. I hope you feel better, Peter, and we'll talk to you when you get here.
Thanks, man. Thank you. Bye.
This article appears in May 31 – Jun 7, 2018.