In the early 1970s, Return to Forever was among a triumvirate of bands (with The Mahavishnu Orchestra and Weather Report) that were influenced by what Miles Davis did on Bitches Brew and inspired to take it to the next level. Over the course of six albums, RTF fearlessly combined the power of rock and the virtuosity of jazz, exploring and experimenting while unwittingly raising the bar on musicianship and transforming the fusion landscape forever. The ground-breaking band has split and reunited several times over the past three decades, and the current incarnation (re-formed in 2010) features core members Chick Corea (keyboards), Stanley Clarke (bass) and Lenny White (drums), along with Frank Gambale (guitar) and Jean-Luc Ponty (violin).
I recently spoke with White by phone, and we discussed the current tour, the band's fabled history, and his take on where the music business has gone wrong, among other subjects.
CL: You've been on the road for a month now. How is this reunion tour different than one in 2008?
Lenny White: It's a totally different dynamic. The music is somewhat the same, but we have different takes on it due to the different musicians. It's a great experience. I am having a great deal of fun playing in this configuration, with the violin. It adds another voice and it's a different way to hear some of this music.
You're a producer, too. What's more important — the hook or the beat?
I approach producing records like a director approaches making movies. The best music, whether it has vocals or is instrumental, paints pictures. For me, melody and the ability to tell a story is what I try to get out of an artist. Those things are important to me.
I've only listened to a couple of tracks from your solo album, Anomaly. "Drum Boogie" is sick. And going back, the opening beat to "Mandarin Warlords" is very John Bonham. "12 Bars from Mars" reminds me of all the great riffy parts in Yes' "Fragile," but with more sack on the drums. Tell me how those songs came to life.
I was influenced by all those acts. I incorporate them all into my music. I still to this day get inspired by music that has something different about it. I have heard some tracks from Radiohead I really like, because it sounds different. Anything that is not the norm, I am usually more into and get more inspired by. I am not a conventional guy when it comes to music. I like the edge.
You've expressed your distaste for the labels meddling with creativity and in the production of music. Where did the industry go wrong?
You have to look at how music is created now. It's not the same animal as it was 50 years ago. Maybe not even 20 years ago. How music is processed is different, and it is because of how it is made. The values have changed.
The question to ask is, how has music's purpose changed? Now, music is used to sell things. It doesn't hold the same value it did. There are more musical contributions that aren't stellar. You talk about music from the '60s, many of the records that came out are still considered classics. Nowadays, one in 25 may be considered brilliant. The music industry has meddled and manufactured music in the last 30 years, and this is what the problem is.
What about hip hop?
When you look at hip hop, the intent has changed. When hip hop was hip hop, it was the closest thing to bebop. Not the music, but because of the attitude. Artists have gotten so fat on using coined phrases and the same beats over and over. I am sorry, that just doesn't excite me.
Do you think musicians have a greater chance at achieving a career now, without the traditional labels and with all the advances in technology and communication?
That part is great. I relish that. The fact you can create your own social network and find fans anywhere. You don't have to rely on a label for that.
Let's talk about your opera. How's it coming?
The working title is Utopia. It's a long process [laughs]. It's very detailed and dedicated.
You worked on Miles Davis' Bitches Brew, the album that spawned the jazz-rock movement. Did you get to hang out with [drummer] Billy Cobham?
Billy wasn't on the record.
Contrary to what you may have heard, the official Bitches Brew sessions were done in three days, in August 1969. The only people that were on the record were Jack DeJohnette and myself on drums, Juma Santos and Don Alias on percussion, Harvey Brooks and Dave Holland on bass, John McLaughlin on guitar, Larry Young, Chick Corea and Joe Zawinul on keyboards, Wayne Shorter on sax, Bennie Maupin on bass clarinet and Miles Davis on trumpet. And those are the only people that were on the Bitches Brew sessions. None of the other tracks on The Complete Bitches Brew Sessions box set that's floating around were part of the official sessions. I know because I sat in Miles Davis' house with Miles Davis and listened to those three days' worth of sessions. I want to make that clear. And if anyone disagrees with that, they can come talk to me [laughs].
How was the vibe in the studio?
Oh, it was fantastic. I was a 19-year-old kid. I was scared out of my life. That was my first record. To be able to play with all of those great musicians was really special to me.
So did you ever hang out with Billy Cobham?
Billy was from my neighborhood. He was born in Panama, but we lived in Jamaica, Queens. I've known Billy Cobham forever.
You joined RTF in 1973 after the departure of another legend, Steve Gadd. How'd you get the gig?
We played a week in San Francisco as a trio, Stanley, Chick and myself. At the end of that week, Chick said he wanted to start an electric version of Return to Forever, and asked if I wanted to do it. I told him no because I was playing with a band called Azteca and I wanted to finish out that commitment. So they went back to New York and that's how they got Steve Gadd.
While I was out in San Francisco, maybe four or five months later, my friend Herbie Herbert was putting a band together, and he asked me to jam with his guys. So I did. I jammed with the guitar player and bass player, and they loved it and asked me to play with their band. Then Chick called me again and said that Steve was going to stay in the studio and for me to come on back [to New York] and play. So I went and played with Return to Forever. But the band that I was supposed to be a part of was Journey.
Al Di Meola joined for Where Have I Known You Before. How did that impact how you approached a song?
Chick, Stanley and myself are a jazz rhythm section. Whoever you put in front will affect the sound. But we improvise on everything. Playing with Billy Connors was great and playing with Al Di Meola was great, too. We just adjusted to whoever was playing with us. I play to the music. Whatever is needed, that’s what I do.
Chick changed the lineup after your most commercially successful album, 1976's Romantic Warrior. What happened?
What can I tell you? Artists change. Chick decided he wanted to do something with horns as opposed to the quartet that we had. That was what he wanted to do.
What kinds of set list can fans expect on this tour?
We haven’t had time to rehearse because we have been playing every night. If we do what we were doing in Europe, there’s a good variety. We played stuff from Romantic Warrior, Where Have I Known You Before, Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy and some other tunes that aren’t on any Return to Forever records.
Any hope for "Sofistifunk"?
We started to work that up, but we haven’t had time to rehearse [laughs].
That is a funky ass tune. How did that song come to be?
I brought in a piece of music and said, “let’s make something happen with this.” Everyone put their personality on it and what you hear is what we got.
The current lineup of RTF has been dubbed by some as the greatest fusion band ever assembled. Finish each sentence for me. Jean-Luc Ponty is...
Master virtuoso.
Frank Gambale is...
Master musician.
Stanley Clarke is...
Icon.
Chick Corea is...
One of the greatest American composers.