The New Jersey-born writer, speaker, actor and late-night talk show staple is best known for her honest and realistic views of her longtime place of residence, New York City. Having lived in the ever-changing mecca of culture since the late-1960s, Lebowitz, who just celebrated her 73rd birthday, is as sharp and clever as ever. Known for her penchant to eschew modern technologies like cell phones or Wi-Fi, Lebowitz gained a new level of familiarity thanks to her addictively entertaining seven-part, 2021 Netflix docuseries “Pretend It’s a City.”
Completely made up of a series of conversations with longtime friend and renown film director Martin Scorsese, the critically-acclaimed show was the perfect vehicle for both newcomers just getting acclimated to Lebovitz’s brand of humor and realism to discover her but also for longtime followers who missed her frequent appearances on “Late Night with David Letterman,” which often evolved into hilarious, memorable repartee between she and the host, to enjoy her charm once again.
Never at a loss for insightful words, Lebowitz is on the road, bringing her conversational talents to live performance stages, including a stop at Tampa’s Straz Center this weekend. She checked in from a landline at home ahead of the show.
Tickets to see Fran Lebowitz in Tampa at David A. Straz Center’s Ferguson Hall on Saturday, Nov. 4 are still available and start at $55. Regarding your recent Netflix series, Pretend It’s a City, first, I loved it, but I wanted to know what kind of impact that show had on you. Were you happy with it in the end?
Well, it changed a lot of things in my life because, unbeknownst to me, Netflix is in 192 countries. So, I did not know this. I do not have Netflix. I don’t have a Wi-Fi connection in my apartment so I can’t get it, but of course, I heard of it with people talking about it all the time, but also, Pretend It’s a City came out during the lockdown. This is because Netflix kept postponing it. One of the reasons they postponed was because it’s in 192 countries, they translated it into every one of those languages. I was very angry that they kept postponing it because they owed me some money that I wasn’t gonna get until it came out. And, you know, it was like $10 but I needed it. So, when it came out during the lockdown, obviously COVID was a very tragic, bad thing for the world, but it was probably a pretty good thing for Netflix because people were home all over the world, they couldn’t leave their apartments or houses and everyone except me was watching Netflix.
So, I believe, certainly, that many more people watched because they were home. So that is why I do these speaking dates, like I’m doing in Tampa. I’ve been doing them since I’m 27, so I’ve been doing them for a really long time. But before Netflix, I just did them in the United States and Canada, but now I do them all over the world, so it changed, yeah. Changed in lots of ways. I mean, Marty [Scorsese] is the greatest living director. How could you not like what he does?
I totally agree. And I know you have a long-standing friendship with him. So, was that natural for you to just kind of chat with him while the cameras were rolling?
Yes, because also, maybe 10 years before we did that, Marty made a movie about me for HBO called “Public Speaking,” so I had already done something like that with Marty. But as far as talking to Marty, that’s something I do anyway and, for some reason, which is just lucky for me, I know their cameras are there, but I don’t notice them. They don’t have an effect on me. It just doesn’t, I don’t know why there’s some people who are, like, incredibly aware of the camera and that’s very inhibiting, but I just don’t pay attention to them. So, it was just like talking to Marty. Now, obviously, I knew there were 100,000 people, with lights and stuff all around, but talking to Marty is something that is really just pleasurable for me.
It showed and that came through in the show. It seemed very comfortable and natural to both of you, and I think that’s part of what was so attractive about the show. There was no pretense, it just seemed like an honest conversation about these topics that you both covered. So that’s what I loved about it.
I didn’t even know what they were gonna ask and that’s something I always do like. In Tampa, where I’m gonna be doing this interview on the stage, I don’t know the questions that the person’s gonna ask me and I didn’t know the questions that Marty was gonna ask me. A couple of people made those questions, but not me. And so, I had no idea what they were gonna ask me and I do that really selfishly because I enjoy it more.
I mean, when Marty and I first talked about this, it was kind of my idea originally to just walk around New York and talk and Marty said “Great. I’ll walk with you. We’ll go around and walk around New York.” Many, many famous people say they hate being recognized. Most of them are lying, but Marty really hates that I said “Are you crazy? We wouldn’t get two steps, without people stopping you. There’s no way we can do this in the street. There’s no way you can walk around the street like that in New York.” And so, I can only remember him coming one time when we were shooting on the street and within four minutes he was literally hiding. I looked and said, “Where’s Marty?” He’s in that doorway over there. So, moving it into the [private social club] Players Club, where you can keep people out, was a good thing.
That worked out for him because, like you said, it wouldn’t have been natural for him to be recognized. I’m curious because I’ve read some interesting things you’ve said and some observations you’ve made where you acknowledge that New York has changed tremendously, and you would know that more so than anybody because you’ve been there for so long, but is it safe to say that the whole artistic culture and the whole art scene is just kind of being sucked out of that city?
No, that’s not accurate. What’s accurate to say is “Guess what? It’s not 1972 anymore!” That is true. But the biggest change that you’re talking about really has, in my opinion, to do with…I mean, New York has, I’m pretty sure, always been the single, most expensive place to live in the United States. And this was true in 1970. New York City was like, officially bankrupt in the 70s and still, it was the most expensive place to live in the United States. So that is because it’s New York and there’s a certain number of people wanna live here. They don’t care. It was also very dangerous in the 70s. So, people would say, “Oh, it used to be so much more interesting and, it was so different,” but the world was so different then. There’s no place that isn’t different. But it is true.
I know this sounds bizarre. Probably to someone who’s young, the importance of money has definitely changed. This is always the United States. You know, it’s a capitalist country, Americans love a buck, but the finance industry did not exist in the 70s. In the 70s, there was no such thing as the finance industry, there was Wall Street, there was commercial banking and there was private banking and that was it. So, all of these incredibly, in my opinion, destructive examples of pure capitalism which, you know, result in these psychotic fortunes, when people have this kind of money, and they decide “let’s go to New York” or “why don’t we go to New York?” It’s not that real estate was cheap before, but it was cheaper. And this is not just New York, this is every capital city in the world, the same thing happened. So naturally, if you price out everybody who’s not a hedge fund guy, you’re gonna change the city.
But still, kids come here. I don’t know every single place in the country, but you’re not gonna find more young artists in another place. And the thing is that people don’t seem to understand is that, no matter how many artists there are or how many young artists there are or old artists there are, most of them are not that good. And that’s always true. So, it is true that like 20 years later or 30 years later, you can see who is good, because it shakes out, but you didn’t know at the time there, but guess what? There were 1000 other people, they were terrible. So, it is harder for sure because the relative value of real estate is absolutely harder. There’s no question. And lots of times, kids say to me, I really can’t afford to live in New York, and I say something that is absolutely true. No one can afford to live in New York, except these incredibly rich people who don’t even live here, they just buy apartments. So, no one can afford to live in New York, but it’s worth it.
There’s no other city like it, at least not that I’ve ever experienced. But I get worried. I just hope that the spirit isn’t being removed from the lifeblood there.
I really don’t think it is because, of course, I just said, I’m 72 years old. I wouldn’t be participating in that life now anyway, no matter what era it was because I’m too old. I’m not 20 years old anymore, but there are tons of people who are and there are many of them are here.
Got it. Well, that’s reassuring. I know you said you don’t like to be told what questions you’re going to be asked, but I have to imagine, when you come to Florida, this topic is going to come up I know you’re an avid reader. You’re a big book collector. What are your feelings on the book bans that are going on all over the country, particularly here in this state?
There is no more dangerous thing in a culture than banning books. Even the incredible, psychotic number of guns that are in this country are less dangerous than banning books. And, obviously this is an exaggeration or maybe it’s an understatement. Many of the people who think you should have guns think you shouldn’t have books.
Book banning is the central sign of authoritarianism. It is incredibly dangerous. And, yes, it’s proliferating and, there’s always been, for instance, when I was young, the Catholic Church would have a list of books that Catholics shouldn’t read, and they would also have a list of movies that Catholics weren’t supposed to go to. And I don’t believe they do this anymore, but they also don’t have the political power they used to have.
So, there used to be a thing they would stamp on the front of books “Banned in Boston,” and that would lure people because they would think it was a very sexy book, you know. “Banned in Boston” meant, because the Catholic Church completely controlled the politics of Boston so “Banned in Boston” meant it wouldn’t pay for a bookstore owner to have a book the Catholic Church said you couldn’t read because no one would buy it. So, it’s one thing for the Catholic church to do it and tell Catholics what to do, which I don’t object to, because that is the providence of the church. But for a school, a public school for a governor, for a public school board, it’s beyond outrageous. It’s terrible and it is incredibly dangerous.
Did you ever think you would see something like this in your lifetime, to this extent?
You know, the move to the right in this country is something that you would not have predicted, say, you know, when I was young, but it’s certainly been going on, at least since Ronald Reagan, which was in the 80s, so it’s been going on a long time. It becomes ever more nuts, if you ask me, and partly that is really because of the internet. You know, because there are always people who have these, these ideas, if you want to call them ideas, but they’re the opposite really. But there are always people who have these feelings, or these beliefs, but they weren’t in charge of anything.
It doesn’t matter what, like a couple of people think or, some small group of people think or do; it matters if it gets into the government, into public places, and that has happened. It could not have happened before the internet because there wouldn’t have been places for these people to kind of, congregate, and people used to believe. It’s very dangerous that people don’t believe things anymore. I mean, that people don’t believe that the President of the United States says something, or people don’t believe something they’ve seen in the New York Times. They don’t believe it and they make up a different word for these kinds of things. That’s the “mainstream media,” you know? I mean, there’s apparently, I don’t think it’s quite half, but it’s close. It’s a shocking percentage of the country.
A shocking percentage of the country thinks that Donald Trump won the last presidential election. It doesn’t matter what you show them, it doesn’t matter how much proof you show them, it makes no difference. They don’t care, they’re not interested in proof, they’re interested in how they feel. And so, this is an incredibly dangerous thing. This is probably the most worrisome thing in domestic politics.
A lot of people are so unwilling to believe what’s in front of them because they have almost this alternative truth. And it’s funny a lot of people who use that term you brought up, “mainstream media,” are so quick to use that. But then they’re quick to cite another media source that they find sides more with them to quote as gospel and, and it’s just mind blowing to me.
Well, also because people don’t even believe, say photographs anymore. Photographs used to be evidence. Almost another word for photograph was evidence. No one believes photographs anymore because they can be manipulated. And because even if you know they’re not manipulated, they can say “I think it’s manipulated.” I mean, it’s the technology that allows this. This could never have happened without this technology. Now, there’s nothing to do about it because this technology is here, and people are aware of it, and they just don’t care. I’ve always been interested in the fact that the words “shameful” and “shameless” mean the same thing.
Most people, by which, I mean most sane people, are embarrassed when they get caught in a lie, because it’s embarrassing. It’s definitely embarrassing these Republican politicians, they don’t care. I mean, on January 6th, we all remember, at least I remember, Mitch McConnell standing in the well of the Senate saying this is the president’s fault. Two days later, he’s standing there saying this is not the president’s fault. Now he knew they were going to run the video of him saying the other thing, he didn’t care. It doesn’t matter to them. They don’t care. It’s interesting to me that these people call themselves conservative Republicans because they are anarchists.
You mentioned the internet and I know you’re not thrilled with it, and you don’t use that kind of technology, but it seems like it’s divided people so much, and not just politically but in just normal interaction. As an example, I had a friend I was already associated with send me a request on Facebook and of course, I accepted. That friend later came up to me and thanked me for accepting their request. It’s almost like there’s this whole separate world where people exist, online and in real time.
It’s because it proves that people are grateful for what we used to just think of as normal life. Anything that’s like normal life like when you say hello to your friends. Because now everything turns into a huge fight people have to win. For instance, I fly all the time. This is one of the few minutes where I’m actually in a chair that’s not in the air and, in airport lounges, they used to have CNN on and for the last several years, they’ll say “no” if you ask them to put it on. There’s just sports, there could be 10 different TV screens and different sports. I don’t follow sports, so I, I ask the bartender or the person running the lounge “could you turn one of these TVs to CNN?” and they’ll say “No.” “Why not?” “Fights. There are fights here. So, if we show the news and two guys are sitting next to each other at a bar, they start fighting, and we don’t want any fights here.” And this is, if it’s not 100%, it’s 98% in every airport lounge in the United States. You cannot watch the news.
That’s so sad.
I, guess, like men… I mean, I know women watch sports now, this is the great accomplishment of feminism: now, women watch football games, but I don’t. But I know that people do argue about sports, but apparently, it’s not as lethal as people arguing about politics.
What surprises you? What’s the last event or the last thing you read that really shocked you and, and put you in a sense of disbelief?
I tell you, this happens hourly. You know, it used to be an unusual thing. I would tell you that, in my lifetime, which we just noted is very long, there are three events that occurred during my lifetime where once the event occurred, I remember every single second of the day. And the first one was the assassination of John Kennedy. And the second one was September 11th and the third one was the night that Trump was elected. I mean, actually elected, in 2016. Probably in looking back, the thing most damaging to the country in the end was Trump.
From a geographical standpoint, you’ve had a lot of time to observe Donald Trump in New York. So, seeing him rise to that platform had to be just surprising to you.
It was jaw-dropping! My best friend had another best friend many years ago. I mean that her other best friend died in like 1974. So I knew her, this other woman, and I was once talking to my friend and I said, if Lilian (that was the woman who died) if she came back to life, this is maybe 20 years ago, what do you think, of all the things that have happened, that she would find most shocking and, without missing a beat, my friend said “that Ronald Reagan was the President.” And, and the reason I remember this is because I talked to this woman every day, the reason I remember this is because I knew it was exactly true.
You know, because now people who are young think Ronald Reagan was like Abraham Lincoln or something. I mean, Ronald Reagan was the template for the stupid president. So, without Ronald Reagan, before that, there was no idea the president could be stupid. I mean, we hated Richard Nixon, but no one thought he was stupid because he wasn’t, you know? We just thought he was bad. I still think he was bad, but no one ever thought Nixon was stupid. He was an intelligent man. You can’t be stupid to be the president because it’s too dangerous. It’s a really hard job. So, we had Reagan and then you thought, well, there never could be a president as stupid as Ronald Reagan. And then we had, George W. Bush, and you thought, there never could be a president as stupid as George W Bush. And then we had Donald Trump. Donald Trump makes George W. Bush look like Albert Einstein.
Subscribe to Creative Loafing newsletters.
Follow us: Apple News | Google News | NewsBreak | Reddit | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | Or sign up for our RSS Feed
This article appears in 11-02-2023.