Karl Denson calls his job with the Rolling Stones a“side gig,” and we totally believe him (the 62-year-old songwriter replaced his hero, Bobby Keys, on saxophone in 2014). For the last two decades, Denson has been expanding fans’ worlds via his Tiny Universe project, and on Saturday he brings some of his Greyboy Allstars bandmates to Orpheum in support of a forthcoming Tiny Universe album, Gnomes & Badgers.
"I feel like this new record, for me, is the most fulfilling thing that I've done so far," Denson told CL on the first Thursday of the new year. His writing process is honed in, and in many ways he's arrives as a singer, too. For Denson, getting better at all of it is what's urgent.
"Writing songs and playing saxophone is what that's all about," he said, adding that a new video for Gnomes track for "Change My Way" is about to get his fans' heads spinning.
CL had a chance to talk to Denson about the LP, Keys and which Tiny Universe song is his "Casino Boogie." Read our full Q&A and get more information on the show below.
Karl Denson’s Tiny Universe w/Stanton Moore/Kenneth Crouch. Sat. Jan. 12, 7 p.m. $22-$35. Orpheum, 1915 E. 7th Ave., Ybor City. theorpheum.com.
Hey, Karl. Did you get the tai chi done already today?
I'm moving kind of slow today, but I'll get to it.
Ah, OK. See I had this image of the Karl Denson routine, you getting up early, doing the tai chi really early. I heard that podcast you did with Andy Frasco where you discussed the practice.
Sometimes I get up late, and sometimes there are things that need to get done. Like yesterday, I got home from the New Year's weekend, and I was kind of burned out, so I just laid down all day. So today I'm catching up with stuff that I didn't do yesterday. Then I'll get my tai chi in, and then I'll walk down to the beach and do my stairs.
You're in San Diego, right?
Yeah, Encinitas. The beach is about a 12-minute walk for me, so I go there and walk up and down the big set of stairs.
You've definitely earned anything good that comes your way. From Greyboy to, Kravitz, the Stones even, and Tiny Universe — you are well-respected. Is all the stuff keeping you busy today related to the new album Gnomes & Badgers?
Yes. That's my focus. We have two videos coming. One is a big video, and expensive, well-produced one that's gonna raise some eyebrows. It deals with the politics of today.
And what song would that be for?
Have you heard the record?
Yes, I have.
That's gonna be for "Change My Way."
Cool. I don't know how much you want to give away in terms of production, directors, storyboarding and what not.
You know, I think I can talk about it. It's gonna happen very soon. A guy from New Orleans directed it, and he just got done doing a Paul McCartney video. The guy grew up in Argentina. The video deals with what's going on right now with this little Trump era. It struck a chord with him, which is lucky for me. He has Latin roots, so he has a soft spot right now for what's going on at the border. We're trying to make some waves and make people aware of what's happening. We want them to stop listening to the talking heads and to stop listening to the world in soundbites — we want them to start connecting with what's really going on.
It's great to hear you talk about these big ideas in the context of your band and the song, because I feel like A few years ago you were trying to get better at “the song.” You hired a vocal producer, and your last work was a huge leap as far as your vocal and production. What's the evolution feel like on Gnomes & Badgers?
I feel like I've gotten to where I was trying to get, and now I'm looking forward to my next couple of records in terms of the vocal thing and writing tunes. Having the band dialed in and saying something to people that I feel is important.
You seem like a self-assured person, but is there any nervousness about putting lyrics out or possibly alienating part of your fanbase? Is that something you discuss in your camp?
Not with my record. My manager have talked about me doing a podcast. I still haven't figured out if I am gonna do it or not — I'm a little nervous about that. Telling people what I think is a little scary. People are mean.
Oh, it's brutal. I always feel like someone's gonna shoot me when they walk into the office.
People are freakin' mean. The last couple of years, every time I go online, whether it's sports, entertainment, politics or whatever. Something will pique my interest, so I go online and look up a couple of articles, but if I hazard down into the comments section…
Oh, that's the first rule: Don't read the comments.
It's just horrible. People are just mean. That's what I want to try and address in my later life. Why are we all so freakin' mean to each other? It's insane to me.
Yeah, I guess this is a personal view, but people who are mean probably had someone who was mean to them, and so on. Maybe the best way to address that or change it is to give that mean person whatever form of love they are capable of receiving. Start from there, maybe.
I'm never sure if it's better or worse than it was before. Our culture, we've moved away from spirituality to a certain extent. Like a crash of the church. People see hypocrisy. Being able to talk to each other in social networks. I think people need to go back to reading books of wisdom a little bit. I think reading Proverbs in the Bible, Bhagavad Gita…
Tao te Ching.
Yeah, smart stuff that you can start your day with. We've gotten away from that. Now people just wake up, turn on the TV and start watching nonsense. We're becoming really self-centered and jive. That's kind of what Gnomes & Badgers is about from my standpoint. It's starting a dialogue with people, letting it be civil.
And what about the guitar in the context of the record? Over the last couple years the guitar has acted a buffer between finishing songs and all the complex ideas in your head. How many on Gnomes are old songs that you finally finished as you've evolved as a guitar songwriter?
Well, not really any of them are from the guitar. The guitar was been part of my working out where I want to go with things. Most of my music comes out of my head. I try to get away from instruments because I didn't think that I was fluid enough to think on that level. So I try to keep everything coming out of my head. But I will use the guitar from time to time to find a bridge, or chorus or something. Just like I do with the piano sometimes. Sometimes it's my listening process. I'll be listening to something and be like, "Oh, I like that bridge." I'll grab the chords and try to fit it into one of my songs. Then I have a couple of records that came right out of dreams, which I am really happy about.
Which ones from Gnomes & Badgers came from a dream you had?
"Time To Play," and "Falling Down."
So is that a thing where you have to wake up or do you just take a note in the middle of the night and come back in the morning?
You have to wake up and sing it into my phone memo. I've got a bunch of those. Like that first song on that [1995] Greyboy Allstars record [West Coast Boogaloo], "Soul Dream" — that was from a dream. I have those from time to time. It's really fun to watch them turn into a real-life song.
And I just wanted to confirm the band for the tour really quick. Guitarist DJ Williams, drummer Zak Najor, bassist Chris Stillwell, keyboardist David Veith, trumpeter Chris Littlefield and slide/lap steel guitarist Seth Freeman?
Yup, that's the band.
And how much have you gotten to rehearse the record? What will the set look like. You've done an Aretha tribute recently. Any of that mixed in there?
We just did a few days of rehearsal before Christmas. We started learning the new record and a bunch of my old stuff. We've kind of moved away from covers for the time being. Last weekend we did five shows, and it was 85-percent our own tunes. It's really fun. We learned some really old stuff. It's fun because you look in the audience, and there are 10 or 15 people who've been around for the whole run, for the whole 20 years of Tiny Universe. So we drop something like "Groove On," and they're just like, "Yeah," because they haven't heard it in probably five, six or seven years.
The heads. Your tribe.
Yeah, we're reinventing ourselves by learning ourselves. With the new record, having those tunes, we've been able to create a new dynamic, which is really the idea here now that I have the band dialed in I feel like it's time to go fast. As soon as we get this record out we're gonna start working on another one, try to get that out within a year and put a lot of catalog together this year.
And for the people who haven't been around for 20 years. You talk about Bobby Keys, specifically "Casino Boogie" being the essence of him in your eyes. When it comes to sax solos, what the best way to hear who Karl Denson is — what's your “Casino Boogie”?
Did I tell you that I love "Casino Boogie"?
You've talked about it before. Correct me if I'm wrong, by the way.
No, you're totally right. I was just amazed that you knew that. That's a great saxophone solo.
Yeah, that's who Bobby Keys is right?
Yeah. I think my saxophone playing is a lot more complicated then the Bobby Keys thing, so you kind of have to spend some time if you want to know who I really am. You know, I think, probably, New Ammo. That's a good distillation of what I am as a horn player. You've got anything from the title track on that record to "Grenadiers." I think between those two songs, you can kind of hear where I'm coming from. Saxophone for me is such a journey. I'm torn between all kinds of stuff all the time. I would really love to just be a bee-bop player, but I also like people like Yusef Lateef, Eddie Harris and Rahsaan Roland Kirk. There's that dynamic.
Then you're trying to write vocal songs and put the saxophone inside of that in the right way; that's always a challenge because every song calls for a different take on things. I think "New Ammo," "Malgorium" and "Grenadiers" on that album would tell you who I am.
I was curious about a technical thing. On the last record you recorded to tape as always but sent it to digital to be used in pro tools. Is that decision based on budget? Did you feel like you lost any of the essential analog qualities in the conversion?
No, and I always switch to analog at some point because, for me as a writer, there is so much extra writing that goes on after the original tracks. To stay with tape you have to be in one of those gigantic studios with 48 tracks of analog, and I can't afford that.
I totally get it. I personally love hearing you talk about your songwriting, but also your journey, and I like to think about you auditioning for the Stones with the live recording of “You Can't Hear Me Knocking” and landing that job. Considering your adoration of Bobby, that's a big deal. So is playing for 60,000 listening to one of the greatest, most plush songbooks in rock and roll. Can you talk about the times when playing your own music or learning a new skill or writing a song was just as fulfilling for you?
Yeah. Really, I mean, The Rolling Stones; that's a side gig. My life is more fulfilling than that.
That's the answer I thought I was gonna get. That's why it's nice, with an artist like you, when you can put that into context. So many people focus on the Stones thing, and they forget that Karl Denson has layers of other stuff that has been going on for so long. To go on a run this long is almost impossible. I like to hear how important your own art is even though you are in the Rolling Stones.
Yeah, I went down to Mexico with Slightly Stoopid to do that "Closer To The Sun" thing they do every year. They decided, this year, to do a couple of my songs, so we did "Mighty Rebel," and I sang it, and a woman came up to me the next day and said, "You know, I always loved your saxophone playing, but your singing — do you have your own band? Do you do other stuff?" And I'm thinking, "Yeah, I actually have a life of my own that I work pretty hard at."
The Stones thing if kind of like my vacation. It's like all the work that I did in my life culminated in this great gig where I get to go, it's easy, it's fun, it's plush — but what I'm doing has continued, and it will continue. I feel like this new record, for me, is the most fulfilling thing that I've done so far. The writing process, I feel like I've arrived as a singer. Knowing what I'm doing — that's my urgency in life. Learning the things I want to learn. Writing songs and playing saxophone is what that's all about.
And I know we're at time, so last question: Is understanding Keith Richards' accent another thing you want to learn in life? Have you figured out the Keith Richards Jamaican, Patois, whatever, thing he's got going on?
I've got it, dude! I can hear him. I had a great dinner with him in Chile. I found a great steakhouse, and I just happened to mention it to him after rehearsal. I said, "Hey I found this steakhouse, it's supposed to be really good. We're going there, so I am just letting you know." And sure enough, he shows up, and I'm sitting next to Keith Richards knocking down a couple bottles of wine, and I'm right next to him just starting to get it. With Keith Richards, you just have to be ready because he's got a different take on everything, so that's really the trick. You have to be ready for a turn that he's gonna take after you ask a question that makes him go left and then right, and then you're like, "Whoa, where'd that come from?" I'm kind of there. I feel like I got a beat on Keith Richards, which is awesome.
Awesome. And real quick, who's playing guitar on "Just Remember"? That one was striking.
"Just Remember," you mean the slide solo?
Yeah.
That's Seth. That song is actually a dream, too. That title came because I dreamt that song, and I recorded it on my phone, and then I forgot about it. Then six months later that melody came back in my head, and I was like, "Hey that's a dream song. I wonder where I put that song." So I go looking for it, and I wasn't able to find it. By the time I realized I couldn't find it, I would forget it again. Then six months later I remember it again. The day before the studio it popped into my head, so this time I started to go look for it, and I realized, "Just record it now you idiot." So I recorded it on my phone then, with it fresh in my memory. It was just one of those melodies that was stuck in my head. Kenneth Crouch, the keyboard player who plays with us, he was the original guy with Lenny Kravitz, he helped flesh the chords out on that. He came in and started singing the melody, and Kenneth Crouch was like, "Dude, I cannot believe that melody." It was one of those things — it came out of a dream.
Well it's in a great place on a great album. Congrats on that. I look forward to seeing the video. Thank you for your time. Safe travels to Florida. Have a good day, Karl.
Thank you so much, we'll see you down there. Have a good day, Happy New Year.
This article appears in Jan 3-10, 2019.