In 2017, Joel Smallbone stood before a judge who told him and more than 50 other people from 24 different countries what he expected of them.
“He said, ‘America is built on diversity. It's the great strength of this country. So bring your arts, bring your religion, bring your artistry, bring your food and because that’s what makes this country great,” Smallbone, 35, told CL about his 2017 naturalization ceremony.
The Christian pop songwriter — and one half of Australian duo for King & Country — agreed, and he thinks dividing lines are made to be crossed.
“We've got to relate to people who look, who sound, who think differently than us more than ever,” Smallbone added.
For King & Country brings an eight-piece touring band and more than 46 instruments to Tampa's Amalie Arena this weekend, but Smallbone, whose sister-in-law was a news anchor in the Bay area, talked about that diversity, what being American means to him and more.
Read an abridged version of this interview in our new print issue on stands today and see the full chat below.
For King & Country. Sun. Oct. 13, 6 p.m. $20 & up. Amalie Arena, 401 Channelside Dr., Tampa. amaliearena.com.
I'm just going to go ahead and break the ice like a collarbone. You and your brother Luke always seem to find adventures. Have you ever had any cool adventures in the Clearwater/Tampa Bay area that you might want to talk about?
Well, I can't say precisely where, but we've had a lot of adventures, not only with us, but family members; my sister-in-law was a newscaster down in that area. And she’s since moved on, but she was there for one of the major hurricanes, which was obviously pretty intense. Florida is one of the great states in the United States that has accepted us and our music more than almost anyone. It’s where we’ve had the most elaborate performances — particularly in the Tampa area.
And then certainly, most inevitably, because we're Australian, Florida, climate-wise and vibe-wise recreates so much of Australia. We’re in Nashville, Tennessee now, so most of our holidays, and great memories of going to the beach and celebrating together end up being in the great state and the wider area that you're in. Everything from my one year wedding anniversary in St. Augustine, to you know, these shows, to a family holiday. They are great memories.
I'm just going to cut to the chase on this. Do you happen to remember playing football in Clearwater? And maybe someone hurting a collarbone?
Yes! You guys bring that up every time! Ha ha! We were on the road. Yeah. I was with my sister Rebecca St. James. We had these objectless footy matches, and I think it was one of the who volunteers broke their collarbone that evening. We're hardcore, man. In Australia, you've got a rugby league, right? So I don't wear any pads as the gridiron Americans do. So it's all very hardcore down there in Australia.
Well, hopefully, our hardcore holds up in Florida for you this time around. So you and your brother have been performing since you were teenagers. It literally seems like if you do choose to take a break, it's for more work such as that acting, because you guys really seem to love what you do. How did you get into it? And have you ever actually stopped for a break?
Yeah, we kind of stop intermittently, you know, we took a month off at the top of the year just went down to Australia, and that was just really lovely. We kind of put my phone away, and I just spent that time with my wife. And then we actually had the real serendipitous moment of being able to play the Sydney Opera House in late January this year, which was a dream come true for us as a family. It was a bit of a hero's journey throughout that.
But yeah, intermittently, I think that's the key is just finding the pockets. If you wait for the big moments, like, “Oh, I've done it, like let's take a year off,” that might not happen. I suppose Ed Sheeran, he did it well. He took a year off as have a few others that have done it.
For us, This is such a beautiful time in the arts, it's such a beautiful time for music, for inspiration in this country. I became a citizen recently, so I feel this real need, both in music and in filmmaking, to tell stories that hopefully will encourage inspire our culture and unity. So we're not too weary right now. We're not slowing down anytime soon.
Speaking of films, we actually are working on developing a musical that's set over three Christmases during a very tumultuous era of the Civil War. The films are about two brothers who ended up on opposite sides of the war. And it's called "The Drummer Boy." So, we're writing for it and developing that right now. So, there's a lot happening.
I really love that you mentioned unity. I'm doing this interview for a secular weekly publication in Tampa Bay, which definitely leans far away from the style of, like, a CCM magazine. I think it's safe to say that this kind of interview would have never happened just as little as 10 years ago. How do you feel about speaking to an audience of readers that consist of all walks of life?
Music, by nature, I believe is the universal language. You go into the history of the world, you take away multimedia, you take away movies, you take away electricity, you take away smartphones, the one thing that can travel into the most remote areas of the world, the one thing that will still transpire is rhythm, and melody, and music. And so I love these sorts of moments to connect because my senses, our music was always designed, no matter what the content was, was designed to just be for the capital “P,” People — for humans. And so these opportunities are wonderful and getting the chance to take what we do, having this social, spiritual, romantic music that we write and take it to a larger group of people.
That's really beautiful, and it really promotes love and unity, which seems to be along the lines of the real teaching of Christ. We live in a world that's constantly divided and categorized. There are lines everywhere, you're on this side or that side, but you guys don't seem to be worried at all about which side of whatever line that you're on. You kind of mentioned that with your movie coming out. Another example is collaborating with some really popular artists such as Timbaland. How did this come about?
Well, first of all, I do think rules are made to be broken in some areas. I mean this in the best way, lines are made to be crossed. We've got to cross the aisle more, we've got to relate to people who look, who sound, who think differently than us more than ever. Because what's happening is, we're more connected through social media, we're more connected through our smartphones than ever in the history of the world and yet it's almost like it's tumbled over and become an equal disconnection.
We're tribalizing more and we're individualizing more. When we need to be in a community more than ever. I think you're seeing it in the arts community. You know, I mentioned Ed Sheeran earlier, Ed Sheeran put out a record where almost every song, if not every song, has a collaboration on it.
You see this beautiful idea, you know, men and women, black and white, genre-crossing, you know, collaborations happening in music, and I think it's a sign of the times in the arts in general. And that was the beautiful thing about the Timberland partnership and the Echosmith partnership is this great world-renowned, mainstream producer, you have this kind of indie front girl of Echosmith. I think it was a really striking moment.
And I hope there's more to come. In fact, I know there's more to come because we're about to put out on the 30th, a collaboration with not only an American known artist, but a world-renowned artist that has kinda blown our minds, and I think it will blow yours too. So, stay tuned for that.
I'm really excited to see who that is. There's another line that you seem to cross and that's mental health. Mental health is something that a lot of Christians are very reluctant to talk about, even today.
In "God Only Knows," I really noticed an acceptance of the fact that there is a battle within the mind, and that there is someone who actually does understand this battle when no one else does. Would you mind explaining this concept a little further?
Well, it's a funny phrase, isn't it? "God only knows." Because we throw it around so lightly, negatively, and flippantly. Usually, it's tied to some "God only knows why this nonsense happens."
But when you really do a deep dive into it, if the concept is true, that there's this divine running through the earth and connecting us all and loving us all and accepting us all and knowing us all. The good, the bad, the ugly, and it still has this kind of superhero love for us. And yet, here we are, on the flip side of that. I mean, I'm passing information about others, passing information ourselves, about the world we live in. And yet we're so quick to deal with extremes, we're so quick to pass judgment, we're so quick to point the finger, or self loathe, but coming to this realization that nonetheless you're accepted. No matter what people say, or what they've done, that there's this is kind of love that God only knows. The turning of the phrase was a real beautiful story for us. And, and in turn, we've been really again, crossing across a whole load of different lines and different genres. Been it’s really cool to see how the people just connect with it in a beautiful way.
I really think they do connect. I've seen your concerts before, and I grew up going to plenty of youth group camps, plenty of concerts. In those crowds, it’s very typical to see the crowd feeling the spirit moving through them at a really intense level.
Now as an adult, I see other young people react in the same way for secular music that they really feel. In seeing this, it kind of makes me rethink some of my spiritual experiences in the past, and about whether it was for Christ or for the music. Do you ever find yourself comparing and contrasting the difference between entertainment and worship?
I think there's kind of a starting line that we've got to define and that is this is a very physical world, but it's also a very spiritual world in general. The Bible, for instance, talks about the spirit of fear, the spirit of joy, the spirit of love. So I think when you see those moments, I think music is a spiritual thing.
It's no coincidence that, in some ways, this whole situation, where it kind of derived from, is the spiritual musical director of Heaven, if you will, and people going with it. This all started with music. So there's no doubt that music, in general, has the ability to, throw you on that rock, it has the ability to create violence, a spirit of violence, has the ability to create a spirit of hope, and love and joy. I think what you see in adults is really that spirit of love, and joy, and acceptance, it really comes through that, but I just think, sometimes we want to divide this line and be like, the spirit might be here, which is true, but there's also a spirit in other areas.
You know, and that kind of brings up another point with that setting that you're speaking of, and I can kind of look at myself when I was younger, and I'll be honest, I had a crush on your sister when I was younger; I'm sure I'm speaking for a lot of guys. You're a nice-looking family, you know, and usually in the music industry, it kind of helps to have that sort of sex appeal, which is kind of odd.
In your song "Priceless", you really point out that it's more than just visible beauty that determines a person's value. How is a person considered to be priceless?
Well, first of all, I love your confession. Hahaha, somehow, you know, we could have been brothers-in-law.
We are a never-ending byproduct of the era that we live in; everything is so image-based, right? The billboards on the freeway, it's the advertising on television, you know, fill in the blank. And so naturally, it's not a long bridge to cross to go, “Well, the most important thing is upholding an image.” And we do a lot of that posing and posturing on social media, you know, something maybe for the band. And I think it translates into romantic relationships as well because we live in this ideology where visuals are so important. We sort of trade, the invisible attributes of kindness or being a loving person or a person who serves an outward way of thinking — we trade all these wonderful, long-lasting, invisible attributes for physical ones…
And let me set the record straight, you know, physical beauty is I think something that is part of our nature, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's a beautiful thing to recognize when it becomes a judging system. When it becomes a ranking, or, you know, you're appealing or not appealing. I think and when you're not looking for beauty, the deeper truer, more honest beauty. I think, when you start digging deeper, it's always found in something deeper than the advertiser. It's always found in something deeper than the makeup or the dress you figure it's found in. It's kind of in the type of person you are. Like, that's, to me, that's the truest, deepest form of beauty. And that's what you know, sounds like Christ was struggling out to highlight.
That's a beautiful way of putting it. Especially with all the things going on today that we're dealing with, a lot of the things that you mentioned. Your biggest hit is entitled "joy", and it's about choosing joy in this otherwise negative situation. Positivity is based kind of on the person's reaction to their issues. Not only do you have the same problems the world has, but you guys have been through some rough times. How challenging is it to choose this joy was some of the hell that you've been through?
Well if you have asked me last week, I probably would have had a different answer, because we had one of the most strenuous schedules last week, with a few happy days tucked away in there.
But I think that's the kind of case in point, that's the opportunity to showcase with this lovely and profound three-letter word called “joy.” Because what you're really finding is that, man, if our lives are dependent on a list of circumstances, and situations and relationships with, let's face, predominantly things we cannot control, at least for a long period of time, then our, centering and our kind of joy, if you will, it's going to be pretty interrupted, consistently.
But if it can be based on something deeper, if it can be based on something true, or at least something a bit more settled. This is the experiment to me, and I've seen people have seen proof that this can work — but maybe we can live a life where we can actually face hardship. And we could even face tragedy or great loss, or great harm and still, in the face of it, defy the odds and rise above it.
There's a friend of ours who actually does a lot of baking for us. She lives out in California, she's a childhood friend of my wife and wonderful woman. She was on a mission trip, as a spiritual church mission trip. And I think she was hit by a car on the mission trip, and she lost the ability to use her legs. And you sit back and you go, “OK, if there was any example, or opportunity for someone to be resentful, to shake their fists at God, to give up on life, it would be this woman.” And man, she has chosen joy. She has this great company called the Wild Flour, the flour spelled like, you know, “flour,” dough. And she is such a joy-filled person when in the face of reality, she could have chosen, and rightfully so, she could have chosen to give up on life, she could have chosen to slowly die. But she chose joy. And I think she's better for it. And I see an inspiration. You know, to me.
Wow, that really is a strong inspiration. You seem to really surround yourself with some beautifully creative, strong-willed people and the creativity blows my mind, particularly with this "Burn the Ships" tour, and from what I hear there's an actual ship?
There is a ship. Well, I need to sort of curtailing that concept. It's a concept tour, it's not a literal ship. We're not talking like the Lady Washington ship and putting it into an arena. The stage is the shape of a ship, it comes to a point like the bow of the ship, we have these kinds of LED walls; we call them the LED sails, they sit above the stage, and they kind of can move and contort and, and so there's this kind of overall feeling. It was kind of inspired by the bow of the ship.
And as far as the record is concerned, for the first time, we're going to play every song off the record — and others favorites as well. It's just going to be us and the audience. We're not announcing any special guests. We might have one or two join here and there depending on the town we're in, but it's just going to be two-and-a-half hours of us and the audience going on a journey. And really, I believe, Chris, it's going to be one of the most entertaining, but inspirational and hopefully, life-giving nights that we've ever been a part of.
That sounds amazing, and I am really looking forward to that. Is there anything else about this tour, or what you're doing that you want to let the readers know about?
I mean, if the readers are naive, there's eight of us on stage, and there are 46 instruments, and there's a lot of musical shifting; there's a lot of rhythm. I think half of those instruments are drums. So it's very theatrical, almost like if you married a basketball team and Cirque du Soleil and a band and you put it all together, you kind of end up with a for King and Country show.
I just think we love Florida, I think it's gonna be a great night, I think it's going to be great energy there. In a time where, I believe as an American citizen, a new American citizen, I should say, where we need unity, we need to reach across the aisle, we need to look heavenward and to one another. And not only just tolerate our differences, but literally embrace people that think different and act different and look different from us.
Speaking of becoming a citizen, when I got sworn in, the judge presiding over 50 people there from 24 different countries. And he looked at us and he said it was really inspiring to me. He said, "America is built on diversity. It's the great strength of this country. So bring your arts, bring your religion, bring your artistry, bring your food and because that is possible for what makes this country great.”
I think sometimes we forget that image. I hope even on nights like we're going to have on the 13th of October which is a weekend, that we can remember that together. And I'm really sure we will. Every show that you guys have ever done is one to remember. I think this one's going to exceed any expectations that any of us have ever had before.
Follow @cl_music on Twitter to get the most up-to-date music news, concert announcements and local tunes. Subscribe to our newsletter, too.
