When CL catches up with Michelle Zauner, she is doing her best to fight off a gnarly bout of bronchitis that could make the beginning of her 80-plus date tour with Japanese Breakfast really blow.
"I've had a constant cough since October, and then I had really bad acute bronchitis in December, in Beijing, and I think I just never quite shook it. So I'm trying to get that out of my system before going on tour for, like, ever," Zauner, 29, told CL from her home in Philadelphia.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT
Michelle Zauner is the brain behind one of indie rock’s most promising bands
She's on some Prednisone, which is really hard on stomachs, so her dad has recommended some probiotics.
"I've been eating a lot of yogurt," Zauner said. Her secret weapon, however, may be a Korean rice porridge that her mom used to make. "It's called Jatjuk, and it's pine nut, pork. Like a pine nut porridge that is really easy to digest."
Food is a big part of Zauner's existence (just grab a tissue and read this essay she wrote for Glamour).
For more than 20 minutes Zauner — who brings Jbrekkie to Crowbar for a sold-out show with Snail Mail on April 7 — waxed on her wingchick69 persona, writing video game scores, new Japanese Breakfast songs, Kanye West and more.
Read our full Q&A and get more information on the show below. Read our chat with Snail Mail's Lindsey Jordan here.
Hello?
Hey Michelle, how are you, it's Ray.
Hey, how are you.
I'm alright, thank you. You think 15, 20 minutes?
Yeah, that's totally fine.
Awesome. You're leaving for tour in, like, a week. Are you actually letting yourself relax or are you getting a bunch of things tied up?
Yeah, I'm actually really sick right now, so I'm just on steroids trying to get better before touring.
Damn. What do you have?
I have chronic bronchitis, so I've had a constant cough since October, and then I had really bad acute bronchitis in December, in Beijing, and I think I just never quite shook it. So I'm trying to get that out of my system before going on tour for, like, ever.
Yeah, this is a super long tour, too.
Yeah, yeah.
So you got to play that show in Seoul then?
I did, it was really amazing. My aunt was there, and it was really special.
Did you get to see Yaeji?
I did, I got to hang out with Yaeji. I went to her show a couple weeks later.
Your dad, he's super-supportive, and I think he moved back over there, but I think your Korean family was always a little confused as far as figuring out who pays you etc. — do you think you made some headway after they came to see you play in Seoul?
Oh, my dad actually lives in Thailand, but…
Oh, I'm sorry.
He came to our show in Thailand, but uh my aunt I think was a little confused about what my job was, so it definitely helps her figure out what was going on.
Right on, and I think that you mentioned wanting to take your time with LP 3, but you also mentioned that you never really take a full day off — have you been able to do that in between that tour and getting ready for this one? Are you still in super work mode with all your to-do lists and stuff?
Um, yeah, I'm always working, but I am working on a couple video projects. I'm working on scoring an indie game, I think. So focusing on other projects right now, and slowly thinking about doing a new record, but I don't think I'll really be able to record until the winter time, and we won't come out with another record until next year, probably.
Gotcha, is that the indie game where you're listening to a lot of User Youth, and the "Versions" and stuff from Zelda?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OK, right on. And you answer so many questions about your previous records — you're just really good at that, so I don't have a ton of questions, but I have some questions about a potential third record. I know you wanted to take your time on it, but you’re a famously fast worker…
Haha.
Soft Sounds is sonically leaps and bounds away from Psychopomp…
Thank you.
So I was wondering, for one, if you were demoing anything or if you were deliberately trying to give yourself some space and if you're not are you able to find some technically challenging things that you want to get better at? Or things that you want to say thematically?
Yeah, yes to all of those things. I am demoing right now, and just trying to find the balance between pushing myself outside of my comfort zone while still making something that feels authentically like myself.
I actually just went on a tour with some really, really amazing musicians, and I've always been a little self-concious because a lot of my musician friends have had the opportunity to study theory in college, and learning their instruments, and that was something that I really wasn't allowed to do when I was younger, so I am still really insecure about my lack of knowledge when it comes to theory and my musicianship on guitar and what not. So it is something that I, you know, I am constantly learning and trying to push myself to get better at, and it's like Craig Hendrix is the person who produced the last record with me…
Mmmhmm.
…and he studied at Berklee and he's just so amazingly talented and skilled, and knowledgeable — that kind of thing. So I feel a little insecure about my ability sometimes, so I think this year I would just like to focus on just getting better at that kind of thing, and I don't know, taking more control of the arrangements and production, and, so yeah we'll see what happens. Every time I set out to do something, it always changes a lot once I actually get to working. But yeah, I definitely want to keep challenging myself to become a better guitar player, better producer, getting better at playing other instruments — it's just a constant battle, for sure.
Gotcha, and I see the Yo La Tengo, Pinback and Nine Inch Nails in your LP3…
My playlist?
Yeah.
Oh, you can see that?!
Yeah, I think you made, like a JBrekkie playlist or something…
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I can see the songs that you picked for the Bob Boilen thing with JaySom, and all that stuff, so it's all out there. I don't know if you want to keep it tucked away.
My Jbrekkie playlist is definitely supposed to be public, but I do have "LP3 inspo" playlist, I don't if anyone is into that or not.
Yeah, the video game stuff, it's all in there.
OK.
I like that you quit music for a bit and got that corporate desk job in marketing. You’re selling out all of these shows — how often do you think about the Little Big League days…
All the time.
…when you were sleeping on couches that someone probably pissed on?
Haha. All the time. I think that in the context of other people that are doing this, like a lot of my friends are much younger, and I feel quite old, so I do always feel like insanely lucky. I mean, I'm headlining the venue in Philly that I used to work coat check at.
Nice.
It's pretty nuts to be able to do that. Sometimes, it can be a really hard job, and I feel like such a brat saying that out loud because what we do now is much different from what I did when I was younger, but also, your body changes, your brain changes, you know. I'm much older now, it's a hard lifestyle. I can't, just physically can't, like the chronic bronchitis, I can't sleep in cat-infested places anymore. But, I think about it all the time and it definitely keeps me grounded and all of that. Everytime I feel like, "Why me," about how hard it is to be on tour all the time, I remember how miserable — you know, every job is really, really hard. It's difficult. Working is hard. Any job is really, really hard, so I do feel very grateful that I get to do my job over any other job. It's definitely the best job.
Yeah, but I think some of that is a function of the way that you, actually, as Michelle, treat your job. I mean, it seems like you take it seriously, like if you didn't care about it, then maybe it would feel a little, uh, easier.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it was very worth it to pay some dues, and I do think that's an important thing to have learned. Back then, of course, I was like I really want to be one of those hype bands that gets Pitchfork "Best New Music" when they're 20-years-old and then explodes onto the scene, but I think if that had happened to me I would have lost a lot. I would have lost, maybe, what was important about making music to me to begin with. It was trying to please people a little longer, so I do really appreciate that I kind of saw what it was like to be a band that was desperate to hop on, like, a local bill where their favorite band was playing, so I feel really grateful to be where I'm at now.
I think you definitely made a statement that you were in it for the long haul when you switched the sound up between Psycho and Soft Sounds.
Thank you.
On that Billboard podcast you talked about, um, kind of seeing bands going through these cycles of success before crowds dwindle down and eventually fade.
Mmmhmm.
And then you kind of, maybe coyly, said "Is that gonna happen to me?" You had the desk job. Are you at a point in your life where you're never going back to that and you just want to do art full time?
I mean, as long as it has me. Obviously it depends on what I can afford financially. I think there are other things now that music has really afforded me the opportunity to have, you know, like, be it like scoring things or the video work, I've been really lucky. I think I'm always working thinking that, "This is gonna end" or "This is gonna plateau." I'm always trying to be prepared for that, and sometimes that's a really good thing and sometimes it's really bad because I can never fully enjoy what I've built. Like, "I'm not gonna let this go out — I'm gonna work really hard."
So it's hard finding that balance sometimes, but I definitely don't want to go back to that office job, that is my ultimate sense of failure. I mean, I think that the hardest thing for me would be, I don't think I could ever have somebody be my boss anymore. Like, I just, I don't think I could go back to that. I think I've learned that I always need to do something where I am my own boss, or doing something that's creative. I'm always so scared that this job, or this band is gonna fail, and what am I gonna do if it does, you know? So I have all of these life plans mapped out just in case. Like maybe I'll do more video work, or scoring or write a book or start a Korean noodle shop.
Haha. Yeah, that leads into a bunch of other questions. It's fun to hear you talk about that because I bet you never really thought that your band would be the reason that a lot of people not named Michelle Zauner would be able to put, you know, money in their bank accounts.
Yeah, it's nuts.
So speaking of enjoying the things that you work for. You're on the road so much. Would you ever, like, improve your kitchen so you could have a badass kitchen at your house.
On the road?
Nah, I'm assuming you don't get to cook on the road at all.
No, not really.
So no kitchen upgrades at home in Philly?
No, I think, I rent, so I have a pretty nice apartment that has a kitchen, and I am definitely taking advantage of it while I am home, especially since I'm sick — I make a lot of food, and get better before tour, but I hope someday, when I'm old, I would like to own, like a Korean noodle shop or something.
That's awesome. So yeah, talking about the Korean thing. You've said that the artists you grew up loving are the ones you also felt like you knew (Chan Marshall, Cat Power). You’ve been around long enough now to have a lot of Asians, Asian-Americans come out of the woodwork, declare their Asian-ness to you. I’m Filipino, had to hear my dad talk about eating dog, I was like, "Oh that's like my dad."
Haha.
He would always tell my friends that, and I'd by like, "Why?" Did you ever imagine, even when you were in Little Big League — that you’d be a reference point for women, Asian-Americans — do you feel like Karen O now?
It's really weird because I played many years in Little Big League, and I think that maybe just the scene that I had fallen into — that emo rock scene — which I had never been a part of growing up, it was odd to be placed there. There was a super-white male scene, and I don't know how we got there, I think it had a lot to do with the record we had and the sound, working with three other guys who played that kind of music, so there weren't a lot of those young, Asian girls that would come up to me, you know, and talk to me about that kind of thing. And I don't know if it was, I think a lot of the reason, I mean, I think the landscape changed, and I think a large part of it had to do with Mitski taking us on tour and, maybe the band name. Also, the project being mine, and the press photos being of me instead of kind of hidden between three guys. So yeah, I think those were all things that made that change, and it was really exciting, but, and I maybe I was setting myself up to do Japanese Breakfast, but I just didn't, because I had played in that scene for so long, it never, I don't know, I've been playing music since I was 16, and I don't ever remember anyone ever really talking to me about my Asian-American identity until this project.
Right.
So yeah, I don't know. I think the conversation changed, and it was exciting, but I'm also a little bit leary a bit. Because, as much as I enjoy that it's something that's being talked about, I get weary that I want the conversation to be focused on the songs and my music, and sometimes, like I watch, like with white male musicians these questions aren't being asked, and I get frustrated that don't get to have the same type of substantial questions that they receive about their music.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's obviously a great thing that things are changing. I'm really grateful that there is a new space for these kinds of voices and that people find them to be important. I just don't, I don't want to be a voice that is just important because I am a part of this movement, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
I just want to make music that means something to me as a person, and I don't think that that means me as an Asian-American person. It just means, I don't think about it too often. It's more other people bringing it up to me.
Yeah, it's interesting that you say it like that. You know, also, in my head, there are a lot of questions that I didn't have to ask you because I could glean enough from other interviews where you did such a good job of explaining your music. So I was wondering, what are some of the things — even with all of the great press that's happened around Soft Sounds — what do you think that some people are still missing about your music? Like for me, I think the record is a statement on Psychopomp, and you have yourself on the record, and you even re-did some older songs, and the way you've explained that has been great, and I feel like I understand your album even better since you've been so gracious with letting people in. What are some other things that you wish you could talk about more about the current record and the stuff that you're working on?
Oh, I don't know. It's hard to, like, I don't think I made a record to talk about it. You know what I mean?
Right. It's weird you make it and you have to explain it to all these people.
Right. And I think I learned a lot more about that record from doing interviews. I am a pretty open interviewee. I'm generally pretty interested in exploring what I could have been feeling, so when I am asked a specific question about it I do think about the record in a new way, and it's fascinating to me and kind of therapeutic sometimes. I don't know what people have missed because I don't know what everyone has, you know, I wrote it over a year ago and, um, yeah, I don't know what people left out. I know what I put in.
Yeah. I think you've done a really good job. Even people riffing off the NPR track-by-track thing. I think even some of those stories you've told…
Yeah, people reference that a lot. Sometimes I don't know if I had decided to not say anything because people think that it's too revealing and that they can't have their own interpretation of the song. So I feel like for the next album I should be more vague.
Do you ever miss, now that you're breaking into this indie-rock thing, that undying, unwavering support emo or DIY scenes tend to give bands before any kind of hype ever sets in?
We didn't ever really establish that for ourselves.
Oh, OK.
I feel like I saw it in bands that we opened for, you know, like we opened for Foxing, and we opened for the Hotelier, and I know. Like I saw the fans of Joyce Manor and Modern Baseball. That kind of community is really amazing and has nothing to do with the normal hype cycle — it's all really rooted in touring and physical support. I think that's really amazing, I mean now, people that I've talked to, there's such a thing as playlist pop stars, there are huge acts that are really popular, but they can't draw people to their shows. They're so hyped online that they have no one coming to their shows. So I think that I learned a lot from that scene and what is important, you know.
Like the D.I.Y. community was a really important thing for me, a thing I came from. Like there are certain people that I don't want to work with or there are things, like I feel like it's important to listen to fans, you know, and I think that it's important to play all-ages shows, which is a really, really huge thing for me that is not possible all the time, and it breaks my heart when there are younger kids who ask me if there is something I can do to get a 16-year-old into an 18-plus venue, which I can't. And there's just so much going on.
Like when you have 100-plus shows on your calendar, it gets more and more difficult to keep track of every single venue and, you know, what size you need to play — I guess what I learned in that community is to try and stay involved in every aspect of the band as much as possible. Not take it for granted, and I feel like part of my fear of this whole hype cycle maybe comes from that community, too. Like I've seen bands in those positions just have their careers fall apart, and I think it's a very different thing in the emo scene where are these really true, I don't know, like deeper followers, you know? Because it was discovered in a different way and there's a different connection to it, but I don't think that Little Big League ever really had that. I think that we had select few people, I mean I'm still friends with the person that has every single Little Big League, you know, vinyl, like all of the colors, like he probably owns 10 copies of our first album, he has all the variant covers. We never had a slew of kids coming to every show for Little Big League, we never really broke through.
So yeah, I would like to think that a lot of people are coming to Japanese Breakfast shows, and I would like to think that maybe we're beyond that, but I don't know. Who can say?
Gotcha, and I like that you talked about the idea of community, and I saw your Twitter post about Gabby the other week, and now you kind of have the most important person in your community on tour with you, your husband…
Yeah.
…and that may make touring a little bit easier, but at the same time, obviously, kids whose parents have passed away from cancer have reached out to you, and it's kind of weird because although you wrote about it how can you connect with that person? Do you send like a community in general building around your band, and does it make it more pressure packed for you? Like another thing to worry about in this band-thing?
Um, yes and no. It makes me feel like people have really taken the time to get to know me as a person, you know. And that's something that is really crazy. It's not just the music anymore, it's become, it feels like these people know me as a person. Like my weird inside jokes, and my history of my mom, and my love of cooking.
And your imaginary friends.
Right! Yeah, it's crazy like I have a wingchick69 persona where I eat chicken wings sometimes. It started as a joke, and it's this weird thing to me that people will reference to me sometimes, and it's just nuts. So I feel, simultaneously, like I feel like these people are randomly really close to me. And it makes me feel like they'll be with me for longer, so it feels like we're friends in a way.
Yeah.
I don't know. I'm worried, like, I don't want to do anything to let them down. So I'm also really afraid of doing something wrong accidentally and, we live in a complicated time, you know. I think there's also no way for people to know the whole story sometimes, so you have to make really hard decisions sometimes, and yeah, I don't want to let anyone down. I don't want anyone to inflate my art with my person so much that if I say something, like I said something about how I'm a Kanye West apologist or something, or like I said something, and I don't really, like things can be taken out of context so easily. I said something along the lines of, "I think that Kendall Jenner's Pepsi commercial," like I felt kind of bad for her, you know. Because I think when you're that busy of a person, I mean don't really feel bad for her, but…
I get what you're saying.
…I feel really uncomfortable with the way that we are so cruel to celebrities sometimes and totally forget that they're people. And it just makes me nervous, I guess.
The internet is cruel to people.
Yeah, totally. I send something like that, and I saw that a bunch of people, and I hate that I do it, but sometimes I read the comments on things and people are upset that I, like, defended Kanye West. And I was like, "I think that he's an amazing artist, and he's probably just confused," or, "Things get taken out of context, and he lives a really insane life, just leave him alone." And I think people kind of got upset about that, so I don't know. I guess I'm just afraid sometimes that these opinions that I have are goofy or not even fully established, I just say in passing in an interview and then people become upset about it.
But simultaneously, we've made this beautiful amazing thing that people feel close to me as a person based on these clues that I've given about myself via social media, but it's also a terrifying thing because I don't want to accidentally say something that upsets people or turns people off so much that my career, that I've built, is destroyed.
Nah, I think that you'll just continue to leave a wake of, you know, in real life, the people that you leave in your wake, the way they feel when you come back to town, that's probably, like you said internet stars, I think you build your reputation on the road and the way you treat people and the way you stand up for people, and like with Snail Mail you'll probably have to stand up for her in some of these venues.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for letting me go over — sorry about that.
Oh, it's fine, I was like rambling.
Oh, it's awesome. I hope you get better — what's your food of choice to get better? Is there a secret that mom had?
Yeah, actually there is this, it's called Jatjuk, and it's pine nut, pork, it's kind of like [IDK], but it's like a pine nut porridge that is really easy to digest. And then my mother-in-law made me some chicken noodle soup, and I've been eating a lot of yogurt. And I'm on Prednisone, so it's really hard on your stomach. My dad told me the probiotics are really good for that.
Right on, cool man.
Haha.
I hope you get better, and I hope you endure this very long tour that you are about to go on.
Aw, thank you very much. I'm excited.
We'll see you when you come to Tampa.
Alright, bye.
Bye.
This article appears in Mar 29 – Apr 5, 2018.